User talk:Admin/U.S. Politics

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I disagree with your interpretations both of integral party quadras and of McCain and Romney's typings. I think that the whole thing about "social inclusionism" versus "ethics and productivity" is vastly, vastly oversimplified. For instance, there's an aspect of     (especially delta    ) in the Democratic philosophy of helping people and making sure that people's individual lives are prosperous, as are there elements of     and sort of an unwritten social structure within the Republican Party. This particular idea is not well thought out, but, regardless, I think that the situation is much, much too complex to be able to easily associate into any particular quadra values.

Furthermore, on McCain and Romney: I haven't seen anything on Romney since he dropped out, but at that time I was getting the impression of his being in a     quadra, largely because he seems much more loose and generally less business-oriented all the time than LSEs. in most of his speeches he'll always try to start off with a joke of some kind and always presents a sort of positive face to the outside. also one of the things about him is that i perceive him to be a very duplicitous individual who is willing to do anything to get himself elected, and although i realize that this is absolutely typical of politicians, it also offered a sharp contrast from the comparatively "clean" campaigns of mike huckabee, who i think is ESE or SEI, and john mccain, who i'll get to in a minute. i also think that he's done a dismally poor job of predicting the consequences of such a dirty campaign. i'm leaning more towards ESE, but i'd also look at SLE.

McCain is one of the LSEs i'd compare romney with. whereas romney has something closer to an "always cheerful" approach, mccain is highly principled, yes, but always more duty-oriented. in my mind, he also largely fails to see the bigger picture of the policies he advocates. i can understand where the ESI typing might come from, but in short i think he's probably more energetic and business-oriented than might be typical of ESIs. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 15:25, 9 March 2008 (GMT)

I agree that integral typings and this one in particular are problemmatic, although I think there is some truth to what Rick is saying. Republicans try to project this image of highly moral, family focused people who understand what to do about the economy. But the flip side is that a lot of them end up in scandal that taints their moral image. Of course, we know from the presumed/consensus typing of Nixon that this isn't an argument against Fi. But the Te side is maybe a little more interesting. The Republican economic view is based on total acceptance of the free market system as the answer to everything. Often, Republican viewpoints on a wide number of issues may be viewed as "dogmatic" in the sense of adherence to a set system even when the facts don't seem to fit. Republicans often consider this as a good thing because they're "sticking to their philosophy." (And here I'm talking about the "extreme" Republicans, not the centrists which are very similar to centrist Democrats.) Anyhow, this strict adherence to systems may be an argument for Ti....perhaps combined with Se. I'm not offering that as my own integral typing though....It's just that it tends to conflict with the Fi/Te reading.

On a more general level, I would say that integral typings must not be assumed to work in reverse. That is, even if the structure of Republican thought is related to a certain Socionic dichotomy or quadra, that doesn't mean that the people with those Socionic traits would necessarily agree with the particular position.

A similar problem occurs when people try to equate hawkish vs. pacifist views as Se vs. Si quadras. These are beliefs of content that may be quite separated from the style of the person holding them. A person could be vociferously in favor of more diplomacy and less use of military force but articulate these strong positions in a very Se (or Ni) way. Similarly, I'm sure that there are a lot of people in Ne/Si quadras would believed we were right to take advantage of the opportunities involved in going into Iraq. --Jonathan 22:40, 1 October 2008 (BST)

I agree with Rick on most everything here, except on Obama's type. Expat 11:58, 10 October 2008 (BST)

[edit] McCain's type

Of ESIs I have typed, I would place McCain closest to Henry Winkler and John Travolta in overall demeanor. I just can't see a connection to LSEs.

Here are some videos of McCain I have watched recently:

1, 2, and 3

I can easily point out many     moments in these videos. --Admin 15:53, 9 March 2008 (GMT)

i think i'm starting to agree with you on mccain. Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 03:24, 13 March 2008 (GMT)

[edit] Obama

would you care to explain your reasoning on obama? i'd have thought that LIE would be a likely alternative to EIE; why EII? Niffweed17, Destroyer of Chickens 17:18, 27 September 2008 (BST)

No reasoning as of yet. I've only begun to see him (the debates were really my first major exposure) and am the early stages of forming my opinion. My first impressions are, "I don't understand why so many people at the16types seen EIE in him." I'm a bit perplexed. He seems very amiable in photos and has a winning smile, but on stage he's rather cold and distant. He is known as a gifted orator, but I don't know yet whether his words carry emotional force or are just put together in smart combinations. I'll definitely consider LIE as a possibility. --Admin 02:15, 2 October 2008 (BST)

I may have been the first one to propose EIE for him, or perhaps niffweed. Anyway as I said elsewhere, unless his The Audacity of Hope is a total con job, that's full of Fe not Te. Expat 11:57, 10 October 2008 (BST)

Similar to what Rick said above, Obama strikes me as rather "stiff" and awkward in the way he presents himself publicly. Conversely, in 1-1 interviews Obama comes across a bit more relaxed and at ease. But in public he looks tense and uncomfortable, as if he's forcing himself to act a calculated role he isn't naturally adept in. Which makes me not sure why so many people think he's "charismatic." Contrasting Obama to other EIEs, like say John F. Kennedy or Ronald Reagan, he seems starkly different in his demeanor and overall presence. Temperamentally he gives a distinct impression of being an IJ, IMO. I've thought ESI or possibly EII for awhile now. Ashton 01:21, 12 October 2008 (BST)

I agree with Ashton's observations. As for IJ temperament, I disagree and think that some of that impression is due to his ectomorphy, which makes people seem more withdrawn, regardless of their type. Also, his wife is a clear    -ego type and seems to complement him. --Admin 19:44, 28 October 2008 (GMT)