User:Admin/Comparison of MBTI and Socionics

From Wikisocion

< Back to Rick's Writings at Wikisocion

This is a study of MBTI descriptions and how compatible they are with socionics. I have chosen to use materials from the Myers & Briggs Foundation website in order to make sure my sources are as official as possible. There is always the possibility that I am comparing a "poor" MBTI description with an "ideal" socionics one, which is heavily influenced by my own understanding, or that I am subjecting MBTI descriptions to more rigorous criticism than socionics ones. Perhaps someone who spends more time reading socionics and/or MBTI descriptions can improve the objectivity of my study.

Contents 1 MBTI Dichotomies 1.1 Extraversion or Introversion 1.2 Judging or Perceiving 1.3 Sensing or Intuition 1.4 Thinking or Feeling 1.5 Summary 2 MBTI functions — general 3 Functional usage of introverts 4 The 8 Functions 5 MBTI in practice 6 MBTI types 6.1 General comments on MBTI type descriptions

[edit] MBTI Dichotomies

Here is a summary of the MBTI dichotomies:

Favorite world: Do you prefer to focus on the outer world or on your own inner world? This is called Extraversion (E) or Introversion (I).

Information: Do you prefer to focus on the basic information you take in or do you prefer to interpret and add meaning? This is called Sensing (S) or Intuition (N).

Decisions: When making decisions, do you prefer to first look at logic and consistency or first look at the people and special circumstances? This is called Thinking (T) or Feeling (F).

Structure: In dealing with the outside world, do you prefer to get things decided or do you prefer to stay open to new information and options? This is called Judging (J) or Perceiving (P). [1]

In the MBTT, the emphasis is on "preferences," whereas in socionics it is ostensibly on how one "perceives, processes, and produces information." Both theories focus on general, long-term behavioral tendencies (which the MBTT calls "preferences"), but socionics tries to relate these to information processing. I personally would not use any of the above descriptions as adequate summaries of the socionic dichotomies.

Another key difference is that in the MBTT, there is de facto no longer a distinction between psychic functions (sensing, intuition, thinking, and feeling) and qualities determined by these functions (extraversion, introversion, judging, and perceiving). All these are now seen as being on the same plane. I do not know whether this factor contributes to differences in practice, however.

[edit] Extraversion or Introversion

Source

• Do you like to spend time in the outer world of people and things (Extraversion), or in your inner world of ideas and images (Introversion)? -> Different from socionics. "Ideas and images" are not associated with socionics introversion, but with intuition (or "images" — with irrationality).
• Don’t confuse Introversion with shyness or reclusiveness. They are not related. -> Really? Why then do MBTI tests ask about your degree of sociability?

Extraversion

• I generally feel at home in the world. -> Different from socionics.
• Before I start a project, I sometimes forget to stop and get clear on what I want to do and why. -> Different from socionics. This sounds like something related to socionic ethics or possibly irrationality rather than extraversion.

Introversion

• I like getting my energy from dealing with the ideas, pictures, memories, and reactions that are inside my head -> Sounds more intuition related than introversion related.
• Ideas are almost solid things for me. Sometimes I like the idea of something better than the real thing. -> ??? This sounds like socionics intuition.
• I sometimes forget to check with the outside world to see if my ideas really fit the experience. -> It's hard to imagine many sensing introverts (ESI, LSI, SEI, SLI) relating to this.

[edit] Judging or Perceiving

Source

• This preference may also be thought of as your orientation to the outer world. -> This is completely unlike socionics. The reason for this statement in MBTI is that it is believed that introverts' preference for this axis is determined by their extraverted second function rather than the first. This is a major disagreement between socionics and the MBTT.
• Some people interact with the outside world when they are taking in information. Whether they use the Sensing preference or the Intuitive preference, they are still interacting in the outside world. Other people do their interacting when they are making decisions. It doesn’t matter whether they are using a Thinking preference or a Feeling preference; they are still interacting in the outside world. -> This is a completely different explanation than in socionics, where there is far less separation (probably none at all, actually) of "making decisions" and "perceiving information" along the lines of rationality/irrationality. Rather, functions (or IM elements) from the outset have been viewed as elements/modules of information processing capable of both perceiving information and coming to conclusions.
• People who tend to focus on taking in information prefer Perceiving because they stay open to a final decision in order to get more information. -> What about the knowledge-hungry leading     types? Note that 'facts' are often associated with sensing in MBTT, because they are not associated with "decision making". So LIEs and LSEs in MBTI might easily be categorized as, say, extraverted sensing types.
• The J or P preference only tells which preference the person extraverts. One person may feel very orderly/structured (J) on the inside, yet their outer life looks spontaneous and adaptable (P). Another person may feel very curious and open-ended (P) in their inner world, yet their outer life looks more structured or decided (J). -> I doubt this would seem to be a fitting description of irrational introverts (#1) and rational introverts (#2) in socionics.

Judging

• I appear to be task oriented. I like to make lists of things to do. I like to get my work done before playing. I plan work to avoid rushing just before a deadline. Sometimes I focus so much on the goal that I miss new information. -> These seem much less appropriate for rational ethical types than rational logicals. Socionics does not relate "tasks," "goals," and "getting things done" to rationality.

Perceiving

• I like to approach work as play or mix work and play. -> It's hard to imagine this applying more to a socionics SLE than an ESE.

[edit] Sensing or Intuition

Source

Sensing

• Less emphasis on     than    . No mention, for instance, of "being in tune with one's physical sensations."
• Emphasis on the study of "facts," which in socionics is more related to    . Types such as SEI or ESE, possibly ESI and SEE, might not relate to the MBTI sensing description.

Intuition

• "Impressions" is not related to intuition in socionics.
• Think more about the future than the past -> Quite different from socionics (many     types especially are fascinated by the past).

[edit] Thinking or Feeling

Source

• Socionics logic/ethics is not referred to as "the way one makes decisions." The MBTI description places more emphasis on the "judging" or "decision-making" aspect of this dichotomy in comparision with socionics.

Thinking

• I try to be impersonal, so I won’t let my personal wishes--or other people’s wishes--influence me. -> "Wishes" as in "desires" might be sensing related in socionics. Here socionists would prefer the word "sentiments" over "desires."

Feeling

• I like to do whatever will establish or maintain harmony. In my relationships, I appear caring, warm, and tactful. -> Perhaps a 'positive' use of ethics is being described.
• Focus generally seems to be more on     than    .
• It's hard to imagine a very intelligent person matching the 'feeling' description, despite the disclaimer that 'thinking' should not be confused with intelligence.

[edit] Summary

The MBTI dichotomy most different from socionics is Judging and Perceiving. It is explained in a fundamentally different way. Extraversion and Introversion is somewhat less incompatible with its socionics counterpart, but still contains substantial differences. Thinking and Feeling and Sensing and Intuition seem to be the least different, though there are still some differences of interpretation, for example "facts" being associated with sensing rather than logic, and feeling sounding more like typical     rather than    .

[edit] MBTI functions — general

Source: 1, 2, 3, and 4.

The MBTI type model uses four functions which differ in terms of strength, and thus priority of usage. Socionics tends to focus more on the workings of individual functions rather than simply say that 1 is strongest, 2 next strongest, etc. At the same time, socionics may at times bite off more than it can chew by trying to talk too specifically about functions. Once again, MBTI favors the word "preference" to describe functions, which is uncommon in socionics.

The MBTI functions correspond more or less to the 1st, 2nd, 4th, and 5th in socionics (correct me if I'm wrong). They do not appear to mention the allure of the suggestive function nor anything in the functions relating to expectations of other people, and thus the beginnings of a theory of intertype relations. Whether this reflects a difference of identification of functions in practice or is simply an omission on the part of MBTI practicioners is unclear.

What the MBTI does focus on is the development of functions over the lifespan. The view is prominently stated that functions develop in their order of strength, rising to increasingly conscious awareness as one ages. Socionists do not speak of this, and I think it reflects a fundamental difference of interpretation. From a socionics standpoint, the functions are "elements of information metabolism" and operate regardless of their degree of consciousness. One might become aware of certain values and assumptions as one ages, but this is probably not the function itself (i.e. mental mechanisms) that is becoming conscious, but rather its outward manifestations — and only a smattering of them at that. In addition, with 8 functions instead of 4 represented in each type model, socionics has a much more multi-faceted view of the interplay of functions in the type model. For instance, not only is there a     vs.     opposition, but also     vs.    . As only one of these functions is present in the MBTI type model, this direction of thought has not been developed, to my knowledge.

It's possible that the MBTI has a more sunny optimism regarding the rounding out of one's personality with age, whereas such a view does not seem to be held among socionists. Age brings both wisdom and increasing rigidity, and I wonder if the MBTI's view of personal development is not overly idealistic. Of course, similar criticism might be levelled at aspects of socionics.

[edit] Functional usage of introverts

One of the most conspicuous differences between MBTI theory and socionics is the interpretation of functions for introverts:

For those who prefer Extraversion, the dominant function is extraverted because Extraverts use their favorite function (dominant) in their favorite world (the outer world.)

For those with a preference for Introversion, the dominant function is introverted, used in their inner world, and what they show to the outside is their auxiliary or second favorite function. [2]

Some people in the socionics community who are well acquainted with the MBTI argue that this theoretical difference does not extend to practice and that the description of, say, ISFP is describing the same type as the socionics SEI despite the completely different functional makeup of the former. The lack of a pragmatic difference between the two is arguable, as Russian socionists have been demonstrated to not recognize many Keirsey type descriptions as describing the "correct" corresponding socionic type.

In socionics, which focuses more on information processing than behavior (at least theoretically), a function does not have to be extraverted in order to "interact" with the outside world. An SLI might actively talk about his sensations with other people, for instance. In this case, he is conveying information of an introverted variety to other people and making it the basis of communication and interaction with them. From an MBTI perspective, assuming this SLI was recognized as an ISTP, it would be interpreted that he is using extraverted sensing — his auxiliary function — to interact with the world, while maintaining an "orderly and structured" "favorite" inner world. In practice this means that the lines between functions end up being drawn different in Myers-Briggs Typology than in socionics.

[edit] The 8 Functions

Source.

To begin with, the functions are referred to as "attitudes," whereas in socionics they are seen as ways of processing information and behaving based on information of a certain kind. The use of the word "attitude" to describe a function would seem foreign to socionics. When the functions themselves are described in MBTI writings, however, it becomes clear that they are actually functions, not attitudes. The latter term probably represents a move away from Jung's functional approach altogether.

Extraverted Sensing: Acts on concrete data from here and now. Trusts the present, then lets it go.

Described differently than     in socionics. The consistent focus on facts and data makes aspects of extraverted sensing in MBTI sound like    .

Introverted Sensing: Compares present facts and experiences to past experience. Trusts the past. Stores sensory data for future use.

Almost unrelated to socionics    , at least as described here.

Extraverted Intuition: Sees possibilities in the external world. Trusts flashes from the unconscious, which can then be shared with others.

Similar to    .

Introverted Intuition: Looks at consistency of ideas and thoughts with an internal framework. Trusts flashes from the unconscious, which may be hard for others to understand.

Seems to be a mixture of     and    .

Extraverted Thinking: Seeks logic and consistency in the outside world. Concern for external laws and rules.

Seems to be     +    

Introverted Thinking: Seeks internal consistency and logic of ideas. Trusts his or her internal framework, which may be difficult to explain to others.

Seems to be a mixture of     and    /   

Extraverted Feeling: Seeks harmony with and between people in the outside world. Interpersonal and cultural values are important.

Seems to be a mixture of     and    . Emphasis on "harmony" is not so typical of socionics.

Introverted Feeling: Seeks harmony of action and thoughts with personal values. May not always articulate those values.

Similar to    , but more    +   . However, in socionics, a leading     type would tend to articulate values rather than leave them unsaid.

I would speculate that about 50% of the differences in understanding the functions can be traced to the effects of the J/P innovation of Myers and Briggs (discussed above), while the other 50% comes from Augusta's rehashing of Jung's theory.

[edit] MBTI in practice

In general, different systems diverge more in practice than in theory. This is because the theoretical aspect of a field is always a simplification which describes only the primary rules of thought; other aspects such as stereotypes and traditions are underivable from the theory and yet play a key role in the practical application of ideas. Thus, many points of difference between the MBTI and socionics are virtually undetectable on a theoretical level, yet emerge clearly through application of the field.

One of the practical differences between the MBTI and socionics is the perception of extraverts and introverts. My impression is that extraverts are seen to be people who are heavily drawn into the hustle and bustle of life and necessarily lack a degree of individuality and creativity due to being focused outward. Famous people who created something new or done something unusual — and thus have drawn upon inner sources of inspiration rather than leading copy-cat lives — tend to be perceived as introverts. This is not the case in socionics. I wrote a blog post that shows how the MBTI practical understanding of introversion seems closely related to intelligence; of course, most famous people are of above-average intelligence. In practice, nearly 3/4 of people (in the U.S., at least), are typed as MBTI extraverts. Seeing that extraverts and introverts tend to be evenly distributed among socionists' typings, this implies a typing divergence of no less than 25%, all other factors ignored.

Related to this point, the MBTI in practice seems to have "smart types" and "ordinary types." The most conspicuously smart types are INTP and INTJ. Socionics has historically had an ILE bias and, especially in early years, tended to jump to conclusions regarding intelligence and     and    . It is less common now. I don't know if there is a movement within the MBTI community to sever the implicit connection between intelligence and introversion + intuition + logic.

[edit] MBTI types

The brief descriptions below are taken from the Myers & Briggs Foundation website. The premise of my study is that there is a one-to-one correlation between MBTI types and socionics such that ENTJ=LIE and ISFP=SEI. Parts of each description that are not generally true for the supposed socionic counterpart are marked in bold, with general comments on each type below the corresponding description:

ISTJ:

Quiet, serious, earn success by thoroughness and dependability. Practical, matter-of-fact, realistic, and responsible. Decide logically what should be done and work toward it steadily, regardless of distractions. Take pleasure in making everything orderly and organized – their work, their home, their life. Value traditions and loyalty.

The LSI is not necessarily quiet, and not necessarily tradition oriented. Many more intellectual LSIs are drawn to systems of thought that are hardly traditional. Dependability and responsibility of LSI somewhat overstated. LSIs may have not be so duty-oriented, though their life is always logic-based.     does not equate to duty.

ISFJ:

Quiet, friendly, responsible, and conscientious. Committed and steady in meeting their obligations. Thorough, painstaking, and accurate. Loyal, considerate, notice and remember specifics about people who are important to them, concerned with how others feel. Strive to create an orderly and harmonious environment at work and at home.

The ESI is not necessarily quiet, and their work is not necessarily as careful and "accurate" as suggested here.

INFJ:

Seek meaning and connection in ideas, relationships, and material possessions. Want to understand what motivates people and are insightful about others. Conscientious and committed to their firm values. Develop a clear vision about how best to serve the common good. Organized and decisive in implementing their vision.

Not a bad description of EII, but "clear vision about how to serve the common good" is perhaps an exaggeration.

INTJ:

Have original minds and great drive for implementing their ideas and achieving their goals. Quickly see patterns in external events and develop long-range explanatory perspectives. When committed, organize a job and carry it through. Skeptical and independent, have high standards of competence and performance – for themselves and others.

Overemphasis on implementing original ideas and on pursuit of achievement. "Patterns in external events" sounds like ILI, and "standards of competence and performance" sounds     related. Bad description of socionics LII.

ISTP:

Tolerant and flexible, quiet observers until a problem appears, then act quickly to find workable solutions. Analyze what makes things work and readily get through large amounts of data to isolate the core of practical problems. Interested in cause and effect, organize facts using logical principles, value efficiency.

Not a bad description of SLI, however, where is the    ??? Most SLIs don't seem too interested in going through large amounts of data.

ISFP:

Quiet, friendly, sensitive, and kind. Enjoy the present moment, what’s going on around them. Like to have their own space and to work within their own time frame. Loyal and committed to their values and to people who are important to them. Dislike disagreements and conflicts, do not force their opinions or values on others.

Weak description of SEI, because it doesn't capture any of their really essential characteristics or philosophy, and where is the    ?? Compared to leading     types, SEIs don't usually have very clear values that they are "committed to."

INFP:

Idealistic, loyal to their values and to people who are important to them. Want an external life that is congruent with their values. Curious, quick to see possibilities, can be catalysts for implementing ideas. Seek to understand people and to help them fulfill their potential. Adaptable, flexible, and accepting unless a value is threatened.

Seems to be a mixture of IEI and EII. Too much focus on values, which IEIs certainly have, but do not seem to make the center of their life. Description does not capture at all the essence of IEI or    .

INTP:

Seek to develop logical explanations for everything that interests them. Theoretical and abstract, interested more in ideas than in social interaction. Quiet, contained, flexible, and adaptable. Have unusual ability to focus in depth to solve problems in their area of interest. Skeptical, sometimes critical, always analytical.

Seems to be a mixture of ILI and LII. Not necessarily quiet, although if any type is on average more quiet than others, it's probably the ILI and LII. Description lacks focus on    .

ESTP:

Flexible and tolerant, they take a pragmatic approach focused on immediate results. Theories and conceptual explanations bore them – they want to act energetically to solve the problem. Focus on the here-and-now, spontaneous, enjoy each moment that they can be active with others. Enjoy material comforts and style. Learn best through doing.

Tolerance is not a typical SLE trait, and the exclusive focus on the present is much exaggerated. Due to    , SLEs are often interested in concepts and theories. Too much emphasis on "present-focus" of SLEs and too little on ability to concentrate energy and will.

ESFP:

Outgoing, friendly, and accepting. Exuberant lovers of life, people, and material comforts. Enjoy working with others to make things happen. Bring common sense and a realistic approach to their work, and make work fun. Flexible and spontaneous, adapt readily to new people and environments. Learn best by trying a new skill with other people.

Some ESE qualities mixed in. SEEs don't necessarily convey exuberance. Otherwise, not a bad description of SEE.

ENFP:

Warmly enthusiastic and imaginative. See life as full of possibilities. Make connections between events and information very quickly, and confidently proceed based on the patterns they see. Want a lot of affirmation from others, and readily give appreciation and support. Spontaneous and flexible, often rely on their ability to improvise and their verbal fluency.

Close to socionics descriptions of IEE.

ENTP:

Quick, ingenious, stimulating, alert, and outspoken. Resourceful in solving new and challenging problems. Adept at generating conceptual possibilities and then analyzing them strategically. Good at reading other people. Bored by routine, will seldom do the same thing the same way, apt to turn to one new interest after another.

Not a bad description of ILE, except for "reading other people" and traits such as "quick" and "alert."

ESTJ:

Practical, realistic, matter-of-fact. Decisive, quickly move to implement decisions. Organize projects and people to get things done, focus on getting results in the most efficient way possible. Take care of routine details. Have a clear set of logical standards, systematically follow them and want others to also. Forceful in implementing their plans.

Not a bad description of LSE. Perhaps overemphasized decisiveness and forcefulness.

ESFJ:

Warmhearted, conscientious, and cooperative. Want harmony in their environment, work with determination to establish it. Like to work with others to complete tasks accurately and on time. Loyal, follow through even in small matters. Notice what others need in their day-by-day lives and try to provide it. Want to be appreciated for who they are and for what they contribute.

I have few specific objections, but this description is far too general and could apply to nearly any people person. Where is the    ?

ENFJ:

Warm, empathetic, responsive, and responsible. Highly attuned to the emotions, needs, and motivations of others. Find potential in everyone, want to help others fulfill their potential. May act as catalysts for individual and group growth. Loyal, responsive to praise and criticism. Sociable, facilitate others in a group, and provide inspiring leadership.

Overemphasis on potential, which seems more like IEE. Otherwise, not bad.

ENTJ:

Frank, decisive, assume leadership readily. Quickly see illogical and inefficient procedures and policies, develop and implement comprehensive systems to solve organizational problems. Enjoy long-term planning and goal setting. Usually well informed, well read, enjoy expanding their knowledge and passing it on to others. Forceful in presenting their ideas.

LIEs are often prone to doubts and hesitation and are not as decisive and leadership oriented as suggested here.

[edit] General comments on MBTI type descriptions

Introverts: "Quietness" is attributed to some MBTI introverts, but not to others. This is not a good descriptor of socionics introverts.

Extraverted sensers (ESTP & ESFP): associated incorrectly with love of material comforts.

Extraverted logic (ESTJ & ENTJ): associated incorrectly with decisiveness and forcefulness.

INTJ & INFJ (dominant introverted intuition, according to MBTT): these types are described as most focused on implementing their ideas or vision, which is not correct from a socionics standpoint.

ISTP & ISFP: almost entirely lack mention of    -related qualities.